WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.149 --> 00:00:04.445 Khe Hy: So much of what we do is a type of activity that's called telic activity. 00:00:04.935 --> 00:00:07.145 What that means is an activity that serves as, that moves 00:00:07.145 --> 00:00:09.392 us towards an outcome, right? 00:00:09.662 --> 00:00:15.302 So you might go for a run cuz you wanna be fit or you might read a book 00:00:15.572 --> 00:00:20.507 because you wanna learn a new skill or you might write a tweet because 00:00:20.507 --> 00:00:21.677 you want to get a new follower. 00:00:22.197 --> 00:00:26.577 All of these activities are done as means to some kind of outcome. 00:00:26.827 --> 00:00:31.927 Productivity is the gasoline for this because it just accelerates the 00:00:31.927 --> 00:00:33.397 number of outcomes that are possible. 00:00:33.697 --> 00:00:37.927 Now, there's this whole other set of activities called atelic activities. 00:00:38.257 --> 00:00:41.977 These are activities that are done just purely for the 00:00:41.977 --> 00:00:43.837 enjoyment of the activity itself. 00:00:43.987 --> 00:00:45.577 So like hanging out with friends. 00:00:45.917 --> 00:00:48.857 the activity itself is the outcome, is the gift. 00:00:49.036 --> 00:00:53.255 Listening to music, play with rolling around the carpet with your child. 00:00:53.585 --> 00:00:56.255 The activity itself is what brings you joy. 00:00:56.555 --> 00:01:00.815 Now, as we go through this lens of productivity, what we find. 00:01:01.115 --> 00:01:05.415 is that there's a temptation to make everything outcome oriented 00:01:05.615 --> 00:01:07.835 and a classic example is meditation. 00:01:08.135 --> 00:01:11.525 Meditation is a big thing in tech circles in Silicon Valley circles. 00:01:11.575 --> 00:01:12.865 Why do people meditate? 00:01:13.015 --> 00:01:14.961 Clearer thinking, more energy. 00:01:14.961 --> 00:01:17.036 To regulate their emotions better, right? 00:01:17.246 --> 00:01:20.246 These are all outcomes of meditation. 00:01:20.940 --> 00:01:24.577 And I'm not a Buddhist, but I've read my fair share of eastern philosophy, 00:01:24.937 --> 00:01:29.375 but many Buddhist teachers would be rolling in their graves hearing this 00:01:29.375 --> 00:01:32.855 definition of meditation, telling you that you actually missed the point. 00:01:33.365 --> 00:01:36.815 The point of meditation is to fully immerse yourself in that 00:01:36.820 --> 00:01:39.485 moment with no other expectation. 00:01:39.495 --> 00:01:41.805 And if you can take it a step further, it's actually the disillusion. 00:01:41.810 --> 00:01:45.785 It's like the first step in like releasing the ego and releasing the sense of self. 00:01:45.999 --> 00:01:49.472 And so we have these two activities, they're they're at odds with each other. 00:01:49.992 --> 00:01:53.698 Because the western way of thinking is much more towards 00:01:53.698 --> 00:01:55.078 accumulate outcomes, right? 00:01:55.102 --> 00:01:57.284 More money, more projects, more followers. 00:01:57.284 --> 00:01:57.834 Write more words. 00:01:57.901 --> 00:01:58.472 More outcome. 00:01:58.762 --> 00:01:59.022 Outcome. 00:01:59.122 --> 00:01:59.662 Outcome. 00:01:59.869 --> 00:02:03.241 But like when you're doing the dishes you better make that an outcome 00:02:03.621 --> 00:02:06.413 oriented activity by throwing on the latest Tim Ferris podcast. 00:02:06.576 --> 00:02:09.926 Jason Shen: I'll push on this a little bit with you because I think this is something 00:02:09.926 --> 00:02:13.596 that we hear a lot of, and it either comes from people who are monk-like in nature 00:02:13.596 --> 00:02:17.837 or from people who have quote unquote already become conventionally successful. 00:02:17.927 --> 00:02:23.316 I'm building towards a full-time career as an executive coach, and that was 00:02:23.321 --> 00:02:26.877 based on a realization that, what I just love is to engage with people 00:02:27.027 --> 00:02:31.379 and help them, identify what big new opportunity could manifest in their 00:02:31.379 --> 00:02:32.729 lives and help them go after that, right? 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.309 That is just like meaningful period. 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.274 And if I could do that all day, every day without, and have 00:02:38.274 --> 00:02:39.793 my needs met, I would do that. 00:02:39.842 --> 00:02:44.619 But I always felt that I had to achieve some things before I g et to that point. 00:02:44.869 --> 00:02:48.784 Like I had to build a company and become successful and, be known and 00:02:48.784 --> 00:02:50.974 recognized as an expert on these topics. 00:02:51.274 --> 00:02:55.395 And, I've started multiple companies and there were like total failures or 00:02:55.475 --> 00:02:58.735 modest successes, no blowout success. 00:02:58.745 --> 00:03:02.414 And at some point I had to just look at myself and say, life goes on. 00:03:02.834 --> 00:03:03.974 I've done some things. 00:03:04.424 --> 00:03:08.318 None of them are like Hall of fame remarkable, but they're 00:03:08.498 --> 00:03:10.808 good enough to start being able to help people in this way. 00:03:11.138 --> 00:03:15.757 But, isn't there some amount of telic stuff everybody has to do to 00:03:15.757 --> 00:03:19.987 get, to earn the right to do atelic things or is it really something 00:03:19.987 --> 00:03:21.926 that you can just do, at any time? 00:03:22.008 --> 00:03:25.758 Khe Hy: I would always warn people to examine if they're, just ensure they're 00:03:25.758 --> 00:03:27.498 not living the deferred life plan. 00:03:27.798 --> 00:03:30.536 So the deferred life plan says " I will let myself be 00:03:30.536 --> 00:03:33.236 happy once this thing happens." 00:03:33.326 --> 00:03:36.290 You actually said a version, you said it more with a recognition 00:03:36.316 --> 00:03:37.486 and expertise building. 00:03:37.645 --> 00:03:42.510 Or I will, I see this all the time: extremely rich people, like multiple, 00:03:42.515 --> 00:03:46.160 they're like, " I will take a cooking class once I have my third exit. 00:03:46.420 --> 00:03:47.860 Two exits isn't enough." 00:03:48.220 --> 00:03:48.901 Like they're not good. 00:03:48.931 --> 00:03:50.101 They're not worthy enough. 00:03:50.251 --> 00:03:52.394 And this, we're gonna come back to this word worthiness. 00:03:52.544 --> 00:03:57.881 They cannot they cannot let themselves enjoy something cuz they haven't proven. 00:03:57.881 --> 00:04:00.871 So they'd be very careful with the deferred life plan. 00:04:00.871 --> 00:04:02.596 Cuz you can always move the goalposts. 00:04:02.646 --> 00:04:06.107 Because in, in some version of that, there's an embedded status game. 00:04:06.107 --> 00:04:09.917 If the pursuit is status, and I'm not saying in your case it is, but I know 00:04:09.917 --> 00:04:12.527 that like when I'm trying to get more followers, I'm playing a status game. 00:04:12.707 --> 00:04:13.247 Absolutely. 00:04:13.727 --> 00:04:17.177 And the thing about status games is that they're positional games. 00:04:17.387 --> 00:04:22.007 So there will always be someone, there's only one person in the world with the most 00:04:22.007 --> 00:04:23.897 followers and it's probably a Kardashian. 00:04:24.450 --> 00:04:28.060 There will always be someone with higher status than you. 00:04:28.210 --> 00:04:33.280 And if you were to become the person that has the highest status, you will then 00:04:33.280 --> 00:04:39.699 be fighting the entire time to protect that status with one major headwind: 00:04:39.699 --> 00:04:43.179 We all age, we all start to lose our cognitive abilities 00:04:43.269 --> 00:04:44.949 and ultimately we all pass. 00:04:45.249 --> 00:04:49.209 So you are, if you are on top of that status game, this is why people get 00:04:49.209 --> 00:04:50.769 buildings named after them, right? 00:04:51.009 --> 00:04:54.849 They wanna take that status game to the grave and some, and 00:04:54.849 --> 00:04:59.428 so I would just I would just encourage you to think about that. 00:04:59.428 --> 00:05:03.006 Yes, of course we're gonna have this balance of Teale and AIC activities. 00:05:03.086 --> 00:05:06.936 We don't want to sit under Banyan tree for the rest of our lives at age 21. 00:05:06.946 --> 00:05:11.776 But at the same time, if you're only doing telic things, waiting for that later 00:05:11.776 --> 00:05:13.679 payoff, when are you gonna cash the chips? 00:05:13.809 --> 00:05:15.041 When are you gonna feel okay? 00:05:15.311 --> 00:05:19.370 Because it's not like someone's gonna say okay, Jason, today, you have a 00:05:19.370 --> 00:05:23.510 permission to go on a hike without headphones, but five years ago you 00:05:23.510 --> 00:05:27.230 hadn't done enough . And so you needed that podcast when you went hiking. 00:05:27.380 --> 00:05:30.610 And now you're allowed to take a hike without a podcast. 00:05:31.070 --> 00:05:32.821 That's a slippery slope of an argument.