WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.093 --> 00:00:08.463 Gareth: Rust is such a beautiful thing. 00:00:08.463 --> 00:00:12.113 It represents the death of whatever the object or tool or 00:00:12.113 --> 00:00:14.495 whatever but it's so beautiful. 00:00:14.495 --> 00:00:18.071 And it's also an invitation to repair it. 00:00:18.461 --> 00:00:22.241 I've been doing tool restorations recently, and I just absolutely love 00:00:22.241 --> 00:00:27.634 finding a really beat up old tool and making it look amazing again. 00:00:28.912 --> 00:00:30.322 Dale: Welcome to Make: cast. 00:00:30.352 --> 00:00:31.532 I'm Dale Dougherty. 00:00:32.532 --> 00:00:36.912 Gareth Branwyn joins me on this episode of Make:cast, a production 00:00:36.912 --> 00:00:40.072 of Make Community at make.co. 00:00:42.272 --> 00:00:45.542 In his new book, Tips and Tales of the Workshop. 00:00:45.572 --> 00:00:51.982 Volume Two, Gareth writes: "Tips like slang and jokes, 00:00:52.042 --> 00:00:55.222 funny memes, yearn to be shared. 00:00:55.702 --> 00:00:56.842 Tips want to be free. 00:00:57.592 --> 00:00:59.482 They are shared from maker to maker. 00:00:59.752 --> 00:01:04.432 They are seen in online project documentation and in videos. 00:01:04.732 --> 00:01:09.592 And they're added to the arsenal of shop techniques by those exposed to them. 00:01:10.312 --> 00:01:13.132 They end up in tips articles and books. 00:01:13.642 --> 00:01:16.192 Tips he says are promiscuous. 00:01:16.492 --> 00:01:17.662 And that's a good thing." 00:01:19.297 --> 00:01:20.497 I'd like to you to get to know Garreth. 00:01:20.497 --> 00:01:23.617 He's one of my favorite people that I've ever worked with. 00:01:23.617 --> 00:01:25.447 Gareth, tell us a bit about yourself. 00:01:25.577 --> 00:01:30.987 Gareth: I've been involved in all forms of DIY for my whole life. 00:01:30.987 --> 00:01:37.470 That's something that I recently realized is that I moved to commune when I was 17 00:01:37.470 --> 00:01:39.630 years old, Twin Oaks in central Virginia. 00:01:39.660 --> 00:01:45.951 So that's DIY culture and did all of that for six and a half years and learned 00:01:45.951 --> 00:01:51.107 how to be a printer and learned farming and all kinds of homesteading skills. 00:01:51.947 --> 00:01:58.565 And then I moved to the DC area and moved in with Patch Adams to help him start his 00:01:58.565 --> 00:02:04.835 organization, which is community-based health and very much sort of DIY health. 00:02:05.465 --> 00:02:09.719 And then I got involved in the zine publishing movement in the eighties 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.404 and nineties, DIY publishing. 00:02:12.463 --> 00:02:14.833 And then I got involved in the maker movement, which 00:02:14.833 --> 00:02:17.835 is DIY tools and technology. 00:02:17.835 --> 00:02:21.282 And so yeah, that's a realization that I just recently had. 00:02:21.282 --> 00:02:26.352 It's not something that I intended to do, but I guess I just am attracted to 00:02:26.352 --> 00:02:32.352 hands-on do it yourself, self-reliance and that's been a thread throughout my life. 00:02:32.922 --> 00:02:36.796 Dale: Part of it is just an interest in what the future holds, right? 00:02:37.156 --> 00:02:41.026 Just like that, but not in some ethereal sense. 00:02:41.096 --> 00:02:44.635 But almost more less science fiction and more science fact. 00:02:44.703 --> 00:02:45.563 What can you actually do? 00:02:46.493 --> 00:02:47.073 Gareth: Yeah. 00:02:47.093 --> 00:02:50.930 And the other thing that I find is I back into the latest thing. 00:02:50.930 --> 00:02:54.740 It's not like I intentionally, like at the end of interviews, people 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:57.350 always ask me, what's the next thing? 00:02:57.890 --> 00:02:59.580 And I'm always at at a loss. 00:02:59.580 --> 00:03:04.653 Like I just pick the things that are like internet of things or whatever the 00:03:04.653 --> 00:03:09.343 new flavor is, but I find myself just being attracted to what interests me, 00:03:09.343 --> 00:03:14.738 and then I wake up one day and realize, oh, this is now a trending thing. 00:03:14.738 --> 00:03:18.597 My recent passion has been tabletop gaming. 00:03:18.597 --> 00:03:20.997 It's been a passion throughout my whole life. 00:03:21.064 --> 00:03:23.399 But recently I got back into it. 00:03:23.399 --> 00:03:27.299 I don't know, like five or six years ago and then discovered, oh, it's 00:03:27.299 --> 00:03:35.823 now a big booming area of culture and DIY and all kinds of other things. 00:03:35.823 --> 00:03:38.287 And again, I didn't go into it because of that. 00:03:38.337 --> 00:03:40.884 My interest just came back around to that. 00:03:42.217 --> 00:03:44.887 Dale: Let's focus on your book here. 00:03:44.958 --> 00:03:47.058 There is a quality to this book. 00:03:47.099 --> 00:03:51.059 I'll certainly what I like most about it is just seeing all the 00:03:51.059 --> 00:03:52.812 different names of people in it. 00:03:52.878 --> 00:03:55.901 And something we used to enjoy about Maker Faire, particularly it's just 00:03:55.901 --> 00:03:59.381 to get to talk to lots of people that you normally don't get to. 00:04:00.521 --> 00:04:02.301 There's a quality to this book. 00:04:02.351 --> 00:04:03.641 It's like shop talk. 00:04:03.706 --> 00:04:07.038 Sometimes, you're talking to someone and then an idea pops out of that 00:04:07.038 --> 00:04:10.774 conversation and you go, I'm going to remember that, like they learned 00:04:10.774 --> 00:04:13.514 something and I got to remember that. 00:04:13.724 --> 00:04:13.924 Gareth: Yeah. 00:04:13.924 --> 00:04:16.209 Dale: It seems like your book is full of those things. 00:04:16.239 --> 00:04:16.809 Gareth: Yes. 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:17.529 Yes. 00:04:17.559 --> 00:04:20.499 And, but it's interesting that you say that because when I start off the 00:04:20.499 --> 00:04:25.539 first volume of Tips and Tales from the Workshop, I started going around 00:04:25.539 --> 00:04:29.685 to people like at Maker Faires and say, Hey, I'm doing this book, share a tip. 00:04:30.235 --> 00:04:33.385 And they would just completely draw a blank, but then when you would 00:04:33.385 --> 00:04:37.225 just start chatting with them, they would drop a tip in the middle 00:04:37.225 --> 00:04:38.815 of-- so when they're on the spot. 00:04:39.025 --> 00:04:42.995 Dale: It's funny that in some ways they don't have a filing system for their tips. 00:04:43.007 --> 00:04:43.437 Gareth: If you're 00:04:43.507 --> 00:04:46.124 Dale: It comes out through just talking. 00:04:46.474 --> 00:04:46.924 Gareth: Yeah. 00:04:46.924 --> 00:04:49.825 And you have to train yourself to think that way. 00:04:49.892 --> 00:04:53.918 Like I've always, another sort of self-revelation that I've had 00:04:53.918 --> 00:04:58.438 recently is that I really like short forms of communication, of writing. 00:04:58.438 --> 00:05:01.029 I did the Street Cred column in Wired. 00:05:01.029 --> 00:05:03.399 I did the Jargon Watch column in Wired. 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.159 I've always liked short form things. 00:05:06.159 --> 00:05:09.459 And I found in each of those, like with Jargon Watch, I got to the 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:13.843 point where I could look through a newspaper and a new word would jump 00:05:13.843 --> 00:05:18.193 out at me cause I'd see it often in quote marks or italics or whatever. 00:05:18.553 --> 00:05:23.473 So I got to the point where I could easily scan through television and newspaper. 00:05:24.093 --> 00:05:27.093 Then magazines and those words would pop out. 00:05:27.093 --> 00:05:28.623 And now it's the same thing with tips. 00:05:28.623 --> 00:05:33.633 I watch a video and as soon as somebody starts doing something I know is 00:05:33.643 --> 00:05:38.454 tip worthy, those sort of lights go off and I write it down, as you say. 00:05:38.454 --> 00:05:42.127 And so a lot of it was me going or for both of these books was me going 00:05:42.127 --> 00:05:46.897 around and collecting tips rather than interviewing people because when I would 00:05:47.227 --> 00:05:53.169 ask them for tips so frequently I get no response or kind of an anemic one. 00:05:53.178 --> 00:05:54.480 Dale: That's such an interesting point. 00:05:54.530 --> 00:05:57.176 You and I are talking recently about the idea of know-how. 00:05:57.316 --> 00:06:00.906 If you were to ask someone, show me what you know how to do, I 00:06:00.906 --> 00:06:04.027 want to learn from you, that they would freeze because they don't... 00:06:04.527 --> 00:06:05.917 Gareth: They absolutely do. 00:06:05.977 --> 00:06:09.817 Dale: And there's a real difference between knowing how to do something and 00:06:09.817 --> 00:06:11.917 be able to show someone else how to do it. 00:06:11.917 --> 00:06:12.417 Yes. 00:06:13.157 --> 00:06:15.917 Because it's almost like implicit knowledge. 00:06:16.287 --> 00:06:16.527 Gareth: Yeah. 00:06:16.557 --> 00:06:21.967 When you're really good at something you background 75% of why you're doing. 00:06:22.297 --> 00:06:25.237 Dale: And you might be inclined to almost say things like, oh, I always 00:06:25.237 --> 00:06:29.003 knew how to weld, through, it's feels like to you that you don't 00:06:29.003 --> 00:06:30.773 remember the learning of that thing. 00:06:31.103 --> 00:06:31.883 Gareth: Exactly. 00:06:31.933 --> 00:06:32.233 Yeah. 00:06:32.263 --> 00:06:37.200 And it's like when I used to be the co overlord of Dorkbot DC. 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.510 And when nerds would give presentations. 00:06:40.510 --> 00:06:44.350 So much of it, they would just assume that you knew so much. 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.910 And I just thought that was really a fascinating thing because yeah, 00:06:48.940 --> 00:06:53.650 all of that's been, so backgrounded that they don't know to unpack what 00:06:53.650 --> 00:06:57.880 they're talking about in a way that can bring people along at different 00:06:57.880 --> 00:07:00.416 levels of understanding of the subject. 00:07:01.116 --> 00:07:03.936 Dale: And they do not realize that they're dropping people off. 00:07:04.176 --> 00:07:06.036 Gareth: Yeah, exactly. 00:07:06.346 --> 00:07:09.046 But going back to that idea of community, that's something I 00:07:09.046 --> 00:07:10.917 really wanted to foreground. 00:07:10.987 --> 00:07:15.067 I got into the idea of doing both of these books because I had a couple 00:07:15.067 --> 00:07:22.045 of instances where the first one was I have this pine box that I made in 00:07:22.850 --> 00:07:25.340 10th grade industrial arts class. 00:07:25.416 --> 00:07:27.336 Just a box, a simple box. 00:07:27.336 --> 00:07:29.556 And I've had it with me my whole life. 00:07:29.605 --> 00:07:32.600 I've used it for storing different tools and things in it. 00:07:33.050 --> 00:07:35.150 And I love that box so much. 00:07:35.150 --> 00:07:36.380 It has so much. 00:07:36.448 --> 00:07:37.798 I dunno, remember Mr. 00:07:37.798 --> 00:07:42.238 Jalopy had a concept called the inspired object and it became a 00:07:42.238 --> 00:07:46.295 real inspired object for me, even though it was ugly and poorly made. 00:07:47.375 --> 00:07:52.681 And so I thought about that, how the stories and this sort of legacy or 00:07:52.681 --> 00:07:55.061 whatever carries through with tools. 00:07:55.101 --> 00:07:58.971 And then I had a couple of instances where people would start talking about their 00:07:58.971 --> 00:08:01.311 tools or tips if I could get them there. 00:08:01.641 --> 00:08:05.691 And they would say, oh yeah, I got this from my dad or whatever. 00:08:05.691 --> 00:08:08.841 And I realized, wow, tools really do come with stories. 00:08:08.841 --> 00:08:11.991 They always have stuff attached to them. 00:08:12.411 --> 00:08:17.511 And in that thread of the whole DIY explorations of my life, I've 00:08:17.511 --> 00:08:21.561 always been interested in the people side of the equation, more 00:08:21.561 --> 00:08:23.871 than the tools and technology. 00:08:23.871 --> 00:08:28.611 I'm interested in how people use or misuse tools and technology. 00:08:28.857 --> 00:08:30.957 Dale: What's the story of people doing things. 00:08:30.957 --> 00:08:34.197 People and what they're doing is not just the thing itself. 00:08:34.317 --> 00:08:35.067 Gareth: Exactly. 00:08:35.067 --> 00:08:38.087 When I lived at the Twin Oaks, this commune in central Virginia, and 00:08:38.087 --> 00:08:42.137 I'd go to Southern States, which was like the farm supply store. 00:08:42.707 --> 00:08:46.307 They'd be these old timers, these old farmers sitting around a pot 00:08:46.307 --> 00:08:51.432 belly stove in the warehouse, trading stories, trading these tall 00:08:51.432 --> 00:08:53.652 tales about their farming careers. 00:08:54.192 --> 00:08:57.732 And I just love that idea of getting people together, who are 00:08:57.732 --> 00:09:00.013 makers and them sharing tales. 00:09:00.013 --> 00:09:04.990 So that's why I have shop tales as part of the title which is even 00:09:04.990 --> 00:09:09.730 harder to get people to tell stories like that than it is for the tips. 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.470 Dale: I've always been attracted to because I don't think of myself as a very 00:09:14.470 --> 00:09:19.058 organized person, at least, looking at my desk and things, but I love to see 00:09:19.058 --> 00:09:23.685 the different organizing systems people have for the parts, the components, 00:09:23.715 --> 00:09:25.725 the things that they work with. 00:09:25.785 --> 00:09:29.481 And, it's even going to a school maker-space where lots of kids 00:09:29.481 --> 00:09:31.641 are coming in to access stuff. 00:09:31.656 --> 00:09:36.173 Being able to keep that straight and organized is pleasing. 00:09:36.173 --> 00:09:39.263 So tips in there about how to do that. 00:09:39.593 --> 00:09:39.893 Gareth: Yeah. 00:09:39.893 --> 00:09:42.803 And that touches on something that we were recently talking about this. 00:09:42.803 --> 00:09:45.293 The aspirational quality of tips. 00:09:45.443 --> 00:09:48.923 Like I'm also a tremendously disorganized person. 00:09:49.493 --> 00:09:54.743 So a little bit of that, the more that I expose myself to those 00:09:54.743 --> 00:09:59.373 ideas, some of it, a little leaks into my daily work practice. 00:09:59.373 --> 00:10:03.692 So by exposing myself to that, I'm better than I would be, but 00:10:03.692 --> 00:10:06.734 I always have that sense that, wow, we've got a long way to go. 00:10:07.064 --> 00:10:10.448 Dale: But yeah, people have really good ideas for how they keep things. 00:10:10.658 --> 00:10:13.598 What are some of the tips that you might like to share with us? 00:10:13.878 --> 00:10:18.378 Gareth: And again, thinking through the books, both of the books, I realized that 00:10:18.378 --> 00:10:24.378 the tips that I really, that stick with me the most and that resonate with me 00:10:24.378 --> 00:10:26.918 the most are what I would call meta tips. 00:10:27.128 --> 00:10:29.558 Like how to think about how you work. 00:10:29.625 --> 00:10:33.697 And one of the ones that I liked so much, I actually put it in both books. 00:10:33.727 --> 00:10:37.267 Is, Do you remember PerryKaye, an inventor guy? 00:10:37.827 --> 00:10:42.310 He had that brilliant idea of what he called Frankenstein prototyping 00:10:42.310 --> 00:10:46.532 where rather than trying to design something from the ground up, you just 00:10:46.742 --> 00:10:51.452 think of it as the subsystems that you might be able to find in other things. 00:10:51.932 --> 00:10:56.632 And you bodge them together to quickly get a working prototype. 00:10:57.232 --> 00:11:01.193 And there was something very smart about that, which he said that what happens 00:11:01.193 --> 00:11:04.433 is when you're doing something from the ground up, especially if you're hiring 00:11:04.433 --> 00:11:10.103 some sort of prototyping house to, to render your prototype, you get invested 00:11:10.103 --> 00:11:15.633 in it literally and figuratively, you're invested in going down that avenue. 00:11:15.633 --> 00:11:19.783 So if you get the prototype back and it's not really right, you've invested 00:11:19.783 --> 00:11:22.783 so much time and energy, you just want to keep going with that rather 00:11:22.783 --> 00:11:27.139 than if you spend an afternoon at a toy store and a hardware store and 00:11:27.139 --> 00:11:28.579 stuff, and you bodge it together. 00:11:28.579 --> 00:11:30.808 It's okay, that's not right. 00:11:31.048 --> 00:11:35.788 You haven't really invested much time and money, but he rolled all those 00:11:35.788 --> 00:11:40.355 ideas into something that which is basically the idea to think of the 00:11:40.355 --> 00:11:42.735 universe as a collection of parts. 00:11:43.735 --> 00:11:46.675 And that has absolutely changed my thinking. 00:11:46.705 --> 00:11:51.325 I think that's a really amazing way for makers to look at their world 00:11:52.135 --> 00:11:54.695 is that if you can recombine stuff. 00:11:54.698 --> 00:11:57.668 So that tip has always stuck with me. 00:11:57.938 --> 00:12:01.268 One that I have in this book, which has that a similar sort of 00:12:01.268 --> 00:12:03.248 lasting resonant effect is from. 00:12:03.878 --> 00:12:08.827 I think his name is Scott Waddington from Essential Craftsmen, a YouTube channel. 00:12:08.870 --> 00:12:11.805 And the idea is details layer. 00:12:13.110 --> 00:12:16.290 Which is the idea that when you're doing something and you're at one 00:12:16.290 --> 00:12:21.000 level of it, if you make a mistake, that mistake is going to carry 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.290 over, it's going to compound the next level and the next level. 00:12:25.290 --> 00:12:29.570 And so you want to make sure to be as precise and certainly in certain kinds 00:12:29.570 --> 00:12:34.130 of making what that need precision, you need to be that mindful of that 00:12:34.130 --> 00:12:38.090 precision on every level, because it's going to compound throughout the project. 00:12:38.540 --> 00:12:38.690 Dale: Yeah. 00:12:38.690 --> 00:12:39.020 I like it. 00:12:39.020 --> 00:12:41.000 Like you don't measure something properly... 00:12:41.050 --> 00:12:42.980 Gareth: Exactly where something's a little off. 00:12:43.990 --> 00:12:48.304 But then the inverse of that is another tip that I like from Andy 00:12:48.304 --> 00:12:51.724 Berkey, a friend of mine who I met through the maker community. 00:12:51.724 --> 00:12:54.064 He restores Gothic cathedrals. 00:12:54.964 --> 00:12:56.764 And he said, it's really amazing. 00:12:56.764 --> 00:13:02.768 Cause when you look up into the rafters of a Gothic cathedral, it looks gorgeous and 00:13:02.788 --> 00:13:05.008 everything looks in its place and perfect. 00:13:05.248 --> 00:13:09.718 When you actually get up there, you see all kinds of mistakes, 00:13:09.988 --> 00:13:13.378 but they didn't care because no one is going to be in the rafters. 00:13:13.378 --> 00:13:16.901 It makes sense at the level that you're experiencing it, which 00:13:16.901 --> 00:13:19.120 is on the floor of the church. 00:13:19.630 --> 00:13:24.525 And so that, that's a key from that he derived-- just make it as perfect as you 00:13:24.525 --> 00:13:27.768 can, you don't get hung up on perfection. 00:13:27.818 --> 00:13:30.248 Make it as perfect as it needs to be. 00:13:30.968 --> 00:13:34.178 And I think that's also a really amazing tip. 00:13:34.218 --> 00:13:36.918 Dale: And that, to some degree, the imperfections 00:13:36.918 --> 00:13:40.418 are just part of it, oh yeah. 00:13:41.283 --> 00:13:45.049 You have another thing in there talking about patina and the 00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:46.849 wear of things, which is nice. 00:13:47.149 --> 00:13:49.275 I've always like the term "Wabi Sabi." 00:13:49.275 --> 00:13:51.165 And I was just going to say that too. 00:13:51.165 --> 00:13:51.465 Yeah. 00:13:51.495 --> 00:13:55.365 Just things acquire meaning through use. 00:13:55.415 --> 00:13:59.057 Gareth: I remember on the blog, I put up a couple of projects where people had 00:13:59.057 --> 00:14:05.947 restored like old machinists tool cases, and people said no, you shouldn't do that. 00:14:05.947 --> 00:14:07.667 You should leave it the way it was. 00:14:07.927 --> 00:14:11.481 Fix what's broken, but don't, redo the whole thing. 00:14:11.579 --> 00:14:15.908 People do what they are inspired to do and both of them have merit. 00:14:16.011 --> 00:14:21.422 A couple of other tips that I like from Adam Savage is casters on everything. 00:14:22.587 --> 00:14:28.721 Which in the first volume of the book, I had a thing what she calls a first 00:14:28.721 --> 00:14:34.561 order retrievability, which is the idea that everything in your shop, as 00:14:34.561 --> 00:14:39.721 you're working on a project, everything is mobile so that you can reorient it 00:14:39.721 --> 00:14:43.891 to pull the things closer to you that you need for that particular project. 00:14:43.891 --> 00:14:46.191 And then everything else is in the background. 00:14:46.811 --> 00:14:51.889 So in this b ook I quote, from a video where he's talking about, 00:14:51.889 --> 00:14:54.889 he just buys casters to buy them. 00:14:54.889 --> 00:14:57.529 He always makes sure he has a big box of casters. 00:14:57.859 --> 00:15:02.239 In anything that can possibly roll, he makes it roll. 00:15:02.719 --> 00:15:05.054 And that again, I've been inspired by that. 00:15:05.054 --> 00:15:08.894 And now when I buy things, I always make sure they have casters on them. 00:15:08.961 --> 00:15:11.759 Dale: I remember visiting a Stanford D school once. 00:15:11.782 --> 00:15:16.921 They had just recently designed it and opened it and they had their whiteboards. 00:15:16.958 --> 00:15:20.803 They were on wheels -- move them around from one room to another. 00:15:20.861 --> 00:15:24.029 Also just stack them in the corner if they didn't need to be used. 00:15:24.029 --> 00:15:29.459 And it's also just a general thing about makerspaces that to be able to 00:15:29.459 --> 00:15:31.679 reconfigure the equipment in the space. 00:15:32.309 --> 00:15:32.609 Yeah. 00:15:32.642 --> 00:15:34.772 To be able to move something out of the way, cause you're having 00:15:34.772 --> 00:15:38.645 a social event or to, move things closer to you because you're working 00:15:38.645 --> 00:15:39.987 on something and you need that. 00:15:40.008 --> 00:15:41.763 I think that's a really good idea. 00:15:42.333 --> 00:15:42.483 Gareth: Yeah. 00:15:42.543 --> 00:15:44.673 And when did you look at Adam's shop? 00:15:44.703 --> 00:15:46.743 It's really tight in there. 00:15:46.903 --> 00:15:51.663 There's not a lot of space and you can see many things pushed into the background 00:15:51.663 --> 00:15:53.408 because he's not using those right. 00:15:53.950 --> 00:15:59.260 Another one that he has talked about organization is "be kind to future you," 00:16:00.130 --> 00:16:04.150 which is when you're working on something that you really make sure that you 00:16:04.150 --> 00:16:06.610 clean up at the end of the last project. 00:16:06.610 --> 00:16:11.440 So when you get inspired to do the next one, you don't walk into your workspace 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.653 and then have to spend hours cleaning up, and then you lose that burst of 00:16:15.653 --> 00:16:18.203 inspiration or enthusiasm or whatever. 00:16:18.203 --> 00:16:20.213 I think that's also a really great idea. 00:16:20.483 --> 00:16:25.613 And recently, in a video, he had another idea, which is that if you start 00:16:25.653 --> 00:16:29.733 within a project, if you start to get a little stuck or a little frustrated or 00:16:29.733 --> 00:16:35.373 whatever, just take a break and clean up where you are and then go back to it. 00:16:35.373 --> 00:16:37.046 So it's a palate cleanser. 00:16:37.087 --> 00:16:39.127 I think that's also a really good idea. 00:16:39.467 --> 00:16:40.329 Dale: That's very nice. 00:16:40.348 --> 00:16:46.987 I liked the David Lynch idea that you had in the book about ideas are like fish. 00:16:47.807 --> 00:16:48.727 Gareth: Idea fishing. 00:16:48.727 --> 00:16:49.267 Yeah. 00:16:49.353 --> 00:16:52.982 Dale: A lot of people stumble at that part of how do you get new ideas? 00:16:53.042 --> 00:16:53.715 Gareth: And yes. 00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:54.780 Yeah, it's absolutely 00:16:54.808 --> 00:16:56.818 Dale: I guess just to express that idea. 00:16:56.868 --> 00:17:00.619 When you have a new idea just to focus on it and that idea 00:17:00.619 --> 00:17:02.389 tends to attract other ideas. 00:17:02.449 --> 00:17:03.529 Gareth: Yeah, exactly. 00:17:03.541 --> 00:17:06.644 Dale: A variation of that is things that you naturally put a lot of 00:17:06.644 --> 00:17:08.883 energy into somehow connect to you. 00:17:08.927 --> 00:17:10.195 And it's a sign. 00:17:10.262 --> 00:17:12.431 That generating something for you. 00:17:12.791 --> 00:17:14.261 It's not just exhausting you. 00:17:14.261 --> 00:17:18.911 It's like your creative energies are being amplified. 00:17:18.961 --> 00:17:20.241 Gareth: It's renovating.. 00:17:20.261 --> 00:17:24.431 And David Lynch is a fascinating guy cause he's so loose brained. 00:17:24.458 --> 00:17:29.860 He's so in touch with all aspects of his mental process. 00:17:29.860 --> 00:17:33.100 And he's not afraid to foreground things that other people 00:17:33.100 --> 00:17:34.851 might think--- this is silly. 00:17:34.928 --> 00:17:37.758 Like he's now he's got the weather channel where he does 00:17:37.758 --> 00:17:40.608 the weather every day on YouTube. 00:17:41.248 --> 00:17:46.138 And he just gives a little tiny weather report and it's hugely popular. 00:17:46.408 --> 00:17:51.618 And who would have thought, just giving a daily weather report, frequently there's 00:17:51.618 --> 00:17:53.478 no embellishment to it whatsoever. 00:17:53.688 --> 00:17:55.758 But you watch it every day. 00:17:55.758 --> 00:18:02.168 It's very plain and short, but then one day he goes off on a thing, like he shows 00:18:02.168 --> 00:18:05.138 you something he's been making or so. 00:18:05.161 --> 00:18:09.795 It's so fascinating that it's repetitive and there's very little change. 00:18:09.875 --> 00:18:15.005 It's so cool when all of a sudden he does do something that you don't expect. 00:18:15.525 --> 00:18:19.559 Dale: A lot of your tips do come from YouTube these days. 00:18:19.567 --> 00:18:23.455 You're watching things on there, JimmyDiresta, for instance and others. 00:18:23.455 --> 00:18:28.862 I remarked on this before, but it's amazing the DIY knowledge that's 00:18:28.982 --> 00:18:33.730 on YouTube that really didn't exist before in this accessible form. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.240 Gareth: Yes, absolutely. 00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:38.195 Dale: You also see a lot of stuff that, people aren't 00:18:38.195 --> 00:18:39.365 that much better than you are. 00:18:40.835 --> 00:18:45.105 I guess what I was trying to get at is there's a quality to a good tip, that's 00:18:45.105 --> 00:18:47.685 an insight that seems original or unique. 00:18:47.925 --> 00:18:48.315 Gareth: Yeah. 00:18:48.675 --> 00:18:53.834 Dale: And some YouTube videos are just trading in the obvious things that, I 00:18:53.834 --> 00:18:57.191 don't know, a basic book would cover, are the obvious things you would 00:18:57.191 --> 00:19:01.401 do from a common sense perspective, but what you love about a good tip. 00:19:01.452 --> 00:19:03.282 It's oh, I would've never thought of that. 00:19:03.802 --> 00:19:04.162 Gareth: Yeah. 00:19:04.192 --> 00:19:04.962 Oh God. 00:19:05.412 --> 00:19:10.632 And yeah, I would love to see like a brain map, like what happens to your brain? 00:19:11.022 --> 00:19:16.287 I just for my newsletter, I put out a weekly tips, newsletter called Tips, Tools 00:19:16.287 --> 00:19:22.762 and Shop Tales and I'm doing a giveaway of this book, volume two of this book on that 00:19:23.152 --> 00:19:25.856 and with Donald Bell from Maker Update. 00:19:26.126 --> 00:19:30.386 And so people have been putting tips up on the video that, where he announced 00:19:30.386 --> 00:19:36.556 the giveaway and we've gotten, I don't know, like 70 or 80 tips, and one of them 00:19:36.556 --> 00:19:43.546 is so simple, but it's so cool, which is if you're on Thingiverse and at the 00:19:43.546 --> 00:19:47.295 end of a thing, for people that don't know Thingaverse is a file repository 00:19:47.295 --> 00:19:52.909 for 3D design files and uh, you know, each object has a page and there'll be 00:19:52.909 --> 00:19:58.159 a bunch of the STL files you need to download and images and a read me file. 00:19:58.159 --> 00:20:04.599 And if you'd at the end of the URL, if you do slash zip, it 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:06.954 downloads everything in a zip file. 00:20:06.954 --> 00:20:12.714 So it downloads all the STL files, all the images from that page, the read me 00:20:12.714 --> 00:20:17.994 files, anything that's attached to that page gets automatically downloaded. 00:20:18.234 --> 00:20:22.284 That's such a cool thing rather than having to download each individual thing. 00:20:22.401 --> 00:20:26.271 So just something like that is just such an eye opening idea. 00:20:26.341 --> 00:20:31.660 Like years ago on Make: we published the thing where you can on McMaster-Carr, 00:20:32.310 --> 00:20:37.230 there are a lot of the objects on McMaster-Carr, you can get CAD files of 00:20:37.260 --> 00:20:44.660 those objects and then transfer them to STL files and make a 3D printed, plastic 00:20:44.690 --> 00:20:47.240 version of whatever that component is. 00:20:47.600 --> 00:20:51.530 That's an amazing power that most people don't know about. 00:20:51.530 --> 00:20:53.810 And so that was a real aha. 00:20:54.390 --> 00:20:55.730 I love tips like that. 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:57.637 That are really instant game changer. 00:20:57.663 --> 00:21:01.563 Dale: We have the traditional shop of physical tools, but increasingly 00:21:01.653 --> 00:21:05.929 the internet itself is it, like a Thingiverse, it's knowing 00:21:05.929 --> 00:21:08.179 how to use those tools as well. 00:21:08.299 --> 00:21:10.699 Gareth: When you're talking about YouTube and a lot of times they don't 00:21:10.699 --> 00:21:15.349 know a lot more than you do, that's an interesting thought that I had recently, 00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:19.819 and I don't really know what I think about it yet, but just that idea that 00:21:19.999 --> 00:21:24.769 there's so many people on YouTube doing, showing other people how to do things 00:21:25.189 --> 00:21:27.439 and often they have just learned it. 00:21:27.589 --> 00:21:30.988 And they don't necessarily-- their wisdom or knowledge of 00:21:30.988 --> 00:21:33.088 that thing doesn't run very deep. 00:21:33.878 --> 00:21:36.856 Dale: I don't mind if they're humble about it, but it's when they say, 00:21:36.906 --> 00:21:40.496 I have the perfect way for you to plant seeds, there's nothing new 00:21:40.496 --> 00:21:42.414 and in that, there's just nothing. 00:21:42.684 --> 00:21:44.783 It's just maybe they tried two or three ways. 00:21:44.783 --> 00:21:46.163 I don't know if they did that. 00:21:46.213 --> 00:21:49.453 But they position it as something like a breakthrough. 00:21:49.663 --> 00:21:50.743 Gareth: Yes, exactly. 00:21:50.893 --> 00:21:54.973 Which gets into the whole category on YouTube of these tips collection 00:21:54.973 --> 00:22:00.476 videos, tips and life hacks, where many of them are very dodgy. 00:22:01.196 --> 00:22:03.056 They're either literally faked.. 00:22:03.351 --> 00:22:08.361 Or it's something that could be dangerous or it's just, if you do it, it's not 00:22:08.361 --> 00:22:12.341 actually that interesting, but it looks interesting when you watch it. 00:22:12.371 --> 00:22:14.091 You go, oh, that's cool. 00:22:14.271 --> 00:22:17.401 You can remove a broken light bulb with a potato. 00:22:17.701 --> 00:22:22.291 I saw one a couple of days ago that's a perfect example of this. 00:22:22.291 --> 00:22:25.471 It's if you're have like a threaded rod that shears off. 00:22:25.852 --> 00:22:30.262 It's to the point where you get no purchase on the leftover remaining 00:22:30.262 --> 00:22:36.082 threaded part, you can put two bolts in the hole and then use 00:22:36.082 --> 00:22:40.402 a bar across those as twist from the inside, twist the piece off. 00:22:40.702 --> 00:22:42.772 And I thought, oh my God, that's so brilliant. 00:22:42.772 --> 00:22:44.182 I never thought of anything like that. 00:22:44.362 --> 00:22:47.742 And then you read the comments and people say, they start 00:22:48.062 --> 00:22:52.757 critiquing the circumstances under which that would happen. 00:22:52.787 --> 00:22:57.017 And most of the circumstances, it will never happen that way, which 00:22:57.017 --> 00:23:01.187 is the same thing with the cut potato to remove a light bulb. 00:23:01.307 --> 00:23:05.777 The light bulb has to be broken in exactly the right way to 00:23:05.777 --> 00:23:08.267 be able to accept the potato. 00:23:08.267 --> 00:23:13.032 So it looks cool, but in most daily circumstances. 00:23:13.032 --> 00:23:14.652 It's not really practical. 00:23:15.063 --> 00:23:17.583 Dale: Buyer beware in terms of some tips, right? 00:23:17.643 --> 00:23:18.243 Gareth: Yeah. 00:23:18.301 --> 00:23:19.831 I started my newsletter. 00:23:19.831 --> 00:23:23.761 I've started a new section called tips busters, where I'm trying to 00:23:23.761 --> 00:23:29.521 deputize the readers to pick a tip that looks too good to be true, or 00:23:29.521 --> 00:23:34.381 that they think would be amazing and try it out and then just report back 00:23:34.381 --> 00:23:36.481 to us as to whether it works or not. 00:23:36.809 --> 00:23:40.276 Dale: It's interesting that sometimes it reflects a certain degree of 00:23:40.276 --> 00:23:42.046 ignorance on the person publishing it. 00:23:42.076 --> 00:23:46.066 They came up with something clever, but it's not really a universal 00:23:46.066 --> 00:23:50.346 solution to something that they're claiming, but sometimes there's a little 00:23:50.346 --> 00:23:55.004 bit of mischievousness in claiming something is useful when it's not. 00:23:55.004 --> 00:23:55.506 Gareth: Yeah, again. 00:23:55.556 --> 00:24:01.666 There's another fascinating area of YouTube where it's restoration 00:24:01.666 --> 00:24:05.376 videos and legitimate restoration videos have become really popular. 00:24:05.766 --> 00:24:10.446 So now there's people that will show you going out into an abandoned house and 00:24:10.446 --> 00:24:16.146 finding like an old stereo system and it's all rusty and covered with muck and stuff 00:24:16.146 --> 00:24:17.616 and they take it back to their shops. 00:24:18.066 --> 00:24:23.016 But then you read the comments and people will start pointing out how it's faked. 00:24:23.376 --> 00:24:28.866 And basically they just took a working receiver and just covered it with crap. 00:24:30.336 --> 00:24:30.576 Dale: Yeah, 00:24:31.376 --> 00:24:36.140 Gareth: So it's basically just straight up fraud for money for YouTube views. 00:24:36.270 --> 00:24:36.720 Dale: Gosh. 00:24:36.744 --> 00:24:40.409 That's what social media shows people will do almost anything. 00:24:40.729 --> 00:24:42.209 Gareth: There is a dark side. 00:24:43.629 --> 00:24:45.009 Dale: Speaking of a bright side. 00:24:45.069 --> 00:24:47.499 I wanted to say your book looks great. 00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:51.586 This is not just a bunch of text tips. 00:24:51.607 --> 00:24:53.366 The illustrations are great. 00:24:53.366 --> 00:24:54.282 The layout is great. 00:24:54.294 --> 00:24:55.244 Who is your illustrator? 00:24:55.244 --> 00:24:56.544 He did a great job as well. 00:24:56.609 --> 00:24:57.829 Gareth: Richard Shepherd. 00:24:58.069 --> 00:25:00.289 Yeah, he's done the illustrations for both. 00:25:00.409 --> 00:25:02.817 And yeah, just a charm to work with. 00:25:02.847 --> 00:25:04.527 And it's really fun. 00:25:04.527 --> 00:25:06.057 I love the stuff that he does. 00:25:06.057 --> 00:25:10.827 Theresa Davis is the woman who actually did the layout for the book. 00:25:10.827 --> 00:25:15.807 She and Juliann did a fantastic job and yeah, I'm so thrilled with it. 00:25:15.807 --> 00:25:18.927 Like my wife just read the whole thing, cover to cover, 00:25:19.377 --> 00:25:20.876 and she said, she's a painter. 00:25:20.876 --> 00:25:25.986 So she certainly a maker, but she doesn't identify herself that way, but she said 00:25:25.986 --> 00:25:28.412 she just enjoyed reading it as a text. 00:25:28.682 --> 00:25:29.444 Dale: That's what I'm getting it. 00:25:29.474 --> 00:25:32.862 It's visually stimulating actually, and you have photographs in there 00:25:32.862 --> 00:25:36.675 as well, but I always, I have a fondness for illustration and 00:25:36.706 --> 00:25:37.966 there's just some nice ones in there. 00:25:38.991 --> 00:25:39.231 Gareth: Yeah. 00:25:39.231 --> 00:25:43.491 And one of the things that I love that we did with the two books is at the end 00:25:43.491 --> 00:25:48.159 of the first book we wanted something that would be a visual through line. 00:25:48.639 --> 00:25:50.424 And we were thinking what should that be? 00:25:50.424 --> 00:25:57.404 And I started thinking what's a visual representation of stories in making. 00:25:58.189 --> 00:26:00.415 And I immediately thought of work benches. 00:26:00.445 --> 00:26:04.615 The surface of a work bench tells the story of all the projects 00:26:04.615 --> 00:26:05.935 that have ever been on it. 00:26:05.968 --> 00:26:10.429 And so I asked Jimmy diResta, if he would take some photos of his work benches, and 00:26:10.429 --> 00:26:12.469 we use one of those throughout that book. 00:26:12.739 --> 00:26:16.609 So for this book, we want to do something different and we started 00:26:16.609 --> 00:26:20.319 thinking what would be something that represents a similar kind 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:22.919 of time and stories and so forth. 00:26:22.919 --> 00:26:25.349 And we came up with the idea of rust. 00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:28.439 That rust is such a beautiful thing. 00:26:28.439 --> 00:26:32.549 it it represents the death of whatever the object or tool or 00:26:32.549 --> 00:26:34.930 whatever but it's so beautiful. 00:26:34.930 --> 00:26:38.507 And it's also an invitation to repair it. 00:26:38.897 --> 00:26:42.677 I've been doing tool restorations recently, and I just absolutely love 00:26:42.677 --> 00:26:48.065 finding a really beat up old tool and making it look amazing again. 00:26:48.725 --> 00:26:52.818 And so that led to this rust theme that goes through the book. 00:26:53.423 --> 00:26:58.113 And they did such a great job of finding really beautiful rust images 00:26:58.353 --> 00:27:00.453 that actually relate to each section. 00:27:00.453 --> 00:27:04.607 So the section on fastening has rusty bolts. 00:27:04.617 --> 00:27:10.017 And so I loved how they actually tied in the images to the different chapters. 00:27:11.732 --> 00:27:14.119 Dale: What fascinates me is it's just really how you 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:15.559 learn from different people. 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:21.350 There really couldn't be a book that just had everything in it that 00:27:21.350 --> 00:27:23.420 you needed to know to do stuff. 00:27:23.690 --> 00:27:28.520 As you do stuff, you acquire the, I don't know, receptivity to learning 00:27:28.520 --> 00:27:33.465 new things that made sense to you, or, if someone told you as a beginner and 00:27:33.465 --> 00:27:38.538 this information accumulates and is sometimes not collected in a community. 00:27:38.538 --> 00:27:41.148 It just sits there or moves away. 00:27:41.358 --> 00:27:45.875 But I think your role in going out and grabbing and putting together is 00:27:45.875 --> 00:27:49.445 something that an individual maker doesn't have the time or inclination to 00:27:49.445 --> 00:27:51.225 do, but I think this is really valuable. 00:27:51.895 --> 00:27:54.835 Gareth: That gets into something that you and I were talking about recently too, 00:27:54.835 --> 00:27:57.764 is that idea of curating the content. 00:27:57.954 --> 00:28:02.319 It's a meta function of looking at all the making activity and 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:04.719 try to pull out what's important. 00:28:05.149 --> 00:28:07.489 This is one small aspect of that. 00:28:07.502 --> 00:28:11.570 What are people doing that are clever solutions to problems that are in 00:28:11.570 --> 00:28:15.860 the context of a longer video, but you pull those out, collect those 00:28:15.860 --> 00:28:20.480 together and that becomes a very important part of the maker's story. 00:28:20.527 --> 00:28:26.353 Dale: You group these in useful ways because they're not just, I 00:28:26.353 --> 00:28:29.803 don't know what the number is, 500 tips and just some random order. 00:28:29.885 --> 00:28:31.485 One tip is next to a related tip. 00:28:31.615 --> 00:28:37.251 Gareth: The first book was exclusively just divided up into cutting, fastening, 00:28:37.301 --> 00:28:42.521 gluing, finishing, organize it by the activity rather than the type of making. 00:28:42.521 --> 00:28:44.885 Cause I thought it would have a wider appeal that way. 00:28:44.885 --> 00:28:50.591 For this book I did cheat and I did do a chapter on hobby tips and a 00:28:50.601 --> 00:28:53.921 chapter on maker video production. 00:28:53.971 --> 00:28:59.766 I did kitchen hacks in this one, so I did add a few additional things, but I 00:28:59.766 --> 00:29:04.718 thought that's a really good way to divide up these things by the activity. 00:29:04.718 --> 00:29:08.417 But then the other thing that I did, which has gotten some criticism in 00:29:08.437 --> 00:29:13.237 the first book, which is that it's not organized within those sections. 00:29:13.912 --> 00:29:15.202 Which it's absolutely not. 00:29:15.202 --> 00:29:18.915 I didn't have any sense of oh, this is a beginner tip, I'll put 00:29:18.915 --> 00:29:20.785 this at the front of this list. 00:29:20.785 --> 00:29:24.367 I just basically put them in the order that I got them. 00:29:24.977 --> 00:29:27.043 There was something else behind that, which is I wanted 00:29:27.043 --> 00:29:28.573 this to be a browser book. 00:29:28.603 --> 00:29:33.847 I like books that, you can sit on the toilet, and browse through. 00:29:33.864 --> 00:29:36.204 Dale: open them anywhere and find something useful. 00:29:37.104 --> 00:29:41.461 Gareth: And yeah, it's not, it's this isn't a a course in something 00:29:41.521 --> 00:29:43.351 that has a beginning, middle and end. 00:29:43.651 --> 00:29:45.201 It's not every tip. 00:29:45.271 --> 00:29:48.301 Beginner tips, intermediate tips, advanced tips. 00:29:48.301 --> 00:29:52.291 It's just all in there with the idea that it will inspire. 00:29:52.351 --> 00:29:57.901 At the very least it will inspire people and hopefully people will go through 00:29:57.901 --> 00:30:03.001 and pick up 4, 5, 10 tips that will really change the way that they work. 00:30:03.124 --> 00:30:04.174 Dale: They are inspiring. 00:30:04.204 --> 00:30:05.464 They used that word earlier. 00:30:05.524 --> 00:30:07.612 It just us, that's a clever idea. 00:30:07.618 --> 00:30:12.063 You may not even do that thing, but, it's sometimes taking a tool that's used for, 00:30:12.063 --> 00:30:16.920 I'm looking at silicone makeup brushes here in your book, that being applied for 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.615 using it to apply glue for 3D printing. 00:30:19.925 --> 00:30:25.715 Gareth: All of the beauty supplies, there are so many amazing things like that. 00:30:25.745 --> 00:30:33.941 I had an example myself, where I bought this CNC-cut stand for hobby paints. 00:30:34.631 --> 00:30:39.191 And I don't know, it was like maybe $30 and it came as flat packed. 00:30:39.191 --> 00:30:42.971 I had to sit there and glue the whole thing together, took at least an hour 00:30:42.971 --> 00:30:45.001 and a half to glue the thing together. 00:30:45.361 --> 00:30:49.006 And then somebody mentioned something about beauty supplies 00:30:49.036 --> 00:30:53.116 and that they have these racks on Amazon in the beauty section. 00:30:53.416 --> 00:30:57.316 So I went and I found these acrylic racks for like $12. 00:30:57.616 --> 00:31:01.226 They hold more paints, they take four screws. 00:31:01.226 --> 00:31:05.162 And yeah, so I just thought that is such a cool thing where this is an 00:31:05.162 --> 00:31:09.897 area I would never think to look, but then when you start looking in the 00:31:09.897 --> 00:31:14.067 beauty supply, you find all kinds of like chemicals you could use in the 00:31:14.067 --> 00:31:18.379 shop and stands and racks and brushes. 00:31:18.429 --> 00:31:23.419 Makeup brushes are amazing for all kinds of applications for dry brushing. 00:31:23.469 --> 00:31:25.749 So look in the beauty aisle here, 00:31:25.749 --> 00:31:27.518 Dale: It's related to as jewelry making. 00:31:27.568 --> 00:31:29.118 Gareth: Same, another great example. 00:31:29.168 --> 00:31:31.688 I was going to say a jewelry making thing that I think every 00:31:31.688 --> 00:31:35.828 maker should have, although I don't have, which is a bench pin. 00:31:35.878 --> 00:31:38.488 It's just a little piece of wood that comes out that has a 00:31:38.488 --> 00:31:41.188 V-shape for doing small things. 00:31:41.678 --> 00:31:43.238 Cause I do hobby modeling. 00:31:43.288 --> 00:31:48.532 A lot of times I deal in very small scale and a bench pin 00:31:48.532 --> 00:31:50.302 is just such a useful thing. 00:31:50.512 --> 00:31:54.532 Dave Hrynkiw from Solarbotics turned me on to that. 00:31:54.532 --> 00:31:57.472 He uses it in electronics work all the time. 00:31:57.532 --> 00:32:00.262 And again, that's something that people think, oh, that's a jewelry 00:32:00.262 --> 00:32:04.822 thing, but it's actually a very useful little jig that everyone 00:32:04.822 --> 00:32:06.652 could have on their work bench. 00:32:07.702 --> 00:32:11.789 Dale: It might be good for those who frequent makerspaces to visit some of 00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:15.419 the other areas of the Makerspace apart from the one that they typically use. 00:32:15.509 --> 00:32:16.229 Gareth: Exactly. 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:16.609 Dale: All right. 00:32:16.609 --> 00:32:18.469 I'm going to end with one thing though. 00:32:18.469 --> 00:32:24.380 One idea for a future book that we talked about 10 or 15 years ago and still be to 00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:26.712 be realized, but we call it the Maker Way. 00:32:26.712 --> 00:32:27.462 Do you remember that? 00:32:27.492 --> 00:32:28.542 Gareth: Yeah, absolutely. 00:32:28.542 --> 00:32:28.872 Yeah. 00:32:29.222 --> 00:32:32.677 Dale: And it goes back to what you were saying and something that 00:32:33.217 --> 00:32:37.657 isn't always obvious, but it's how you think about what you're doing, 00:32:37.657 --> 00:32:38.987 that's really interesting here. 00:32:39.024 --> 00:32:41.634 Not exactly or not just what you're doing. 00:32:42.144 --> 00:32:46.701 And I think that's developing that capacity to think about 00:32:46.701 --> 00:32:51.061 what you're doing is kind of what I would say is the Maker Way. 00:32:51.473 --> 00:32:54.383 Gareth: Gregory Bateson used to call it learning how to learn. 00:32:54.450 --> 00:32:57.060 Dale: I remember us having a wonderful conversation about it. 00:32:57.090 --> 00:32:58.738 Gareth: Yeah, let's talk about it more. 00:32:58.808 --> 00:32:59.858 Let's make that happen, 00:33:01.758 --> 00:33:06.708 Dale: Strikes me with your book here is that it's not that it isn't a 00:33:06.708 --> 00:33:08.868 way, there's lot of different ways. 00:33:08.956 --> 00:33:11.551 I think what they used to sayabout the PERL language there's 00:33:11.551 --> 00:33:12.841 more than one way to do it. 00:33:13.201 --> 00:33:15.399 And that was a a good quality. 00:33:15.473 --> 00:33:18.610 There are lots of different ways to do it, but it is Your unique 00:33:18.610 --> 00:33:22.605 way, our own way reflects not just accident, but your intention. 00:33:23.115 --> 00:33:24.361 Yup, exactly. 00:33:24.361 --> 00:33:28.318 Gareth, thank you so much for Tips and Tales from the Workshop Volume Two. 00:33:28.838 --> 00:33:33.092 And just to be clear, you can buy this book any place where you buy books. 00:33:33.092 --> 00:33:37.591 You can also get it on the Maker Shed as a PDF or print and 00:33:37.716 --> 00:33:38.856 Gareth: Here's a copy right here. 00:33:38.856 --> 00:33:41.767 You can see the beautiful illustrations on the cover 00:33:42.607 --> 00:33:44.347 Dale: and make sure you get volume two 00:33:45.247 --> 00:33:46.327 Gareth: and volume one. 00:33:47.267 --> 00:33:51.157 I've seen the sales starting to climbing on volume one. 00:33:51.157 --> 00:33:53.947 So I think people are buying both of them, which is fabulous. 00:33:53.977 --> 00:33:54.457 Dale: That's great. 00:33:54.557 --> 00:33:55.577 Put it in your bathroom. 00:33:57.357 --> 00:33:58.497 Gareth: On your toilet tank? 00:34:00.027 --> 00:34:00.387 Dale: Okay. 00:34:00.417 --> 00:34:01.197 Thank you, Gareth. 00:34:01.317 --> 00:34:02.427 Gareth: Oh, it was a pleasure, dale. 00:34:02.427 --> 00:34:03.117 Take it easy.